Thanks, Tan, for starting a new thread. Several questions have been eating my brain since we've started the class -- and Tan suggested that we address it in the blog forum, so we can all take part in the discussion.
So here are my preliminary questions:
1. I'd hate to put Sooyoung on the spot, but I definitely have VERY strong reactions to Sooyoung's first two assignment poems. And my reactions are polar opposites to Tan's. We've discussed Sooyoung's shade/tag poem in class, but I can now see where Tan is coming from with his critique of it. However, with Sooyoung's first poem -- I feel that our discussion was incomplete. Tan had a VERY strong favorable reaction, but I still can't tap into it. I really want to know WHY and HOW it is a successful poem. Sooyoung -- would you be willing to post your poem here? And perhaps Tan could then expound upon its merits in more detail? I still have a lot to learn in terms of appreciating weird poetry, and feel that Sooyoung's first poem would be a perfect gateway in doing so....
2. ENJAMBMENT. I always feel a bit uncertain with enjambment. Sometimes I appreciate it on the "surprise", "breath of fresh air" level. But whenever I see it on a page, like in couplets or groups of four, I start to wonder: WHY use the couplet or quatrain structure when obviously the words do NOT want to be that way? Why such a rigid visual effect? Why not let the poem be FREE?
But LOTS of poems are like that. So I feel turned off, or just annoyed, like there's some secret rule going on in an elitist cult.
Where do line breaks occur? A wonderful poet/teacher, Lisa Jarnot, once made a list for us:
3. In my own playwriting classes, teachers often admonish us: AVOID ABSTRACT NOUNS -- THEY ARE WEAK! USE CONCRETE NOUNS WHENEVER POSSIBLE! USE ACTIVE VERBS! And: try to use words derived from ANGLO-SAXON roots -- they've got more character than LATIN-derived words.
I wonder if poets feel the same way. Or, whether poets relish the abstract nouns, Latin-family words more...? Is poetry more "heady"? Very interested in what people think.
4. Equal weight / equal volume. I'm interested in whether there is an example of a "perfectly eq. wt. / eq. vol. poem". Like, on the word-word level, as well as the line-line and more global levels.
Ilisa's poem last week, to me, seemed like the most PERFECT, most successful 100% "eq wt / eq vol" poem EVER. Are there more examples though? Very curious.
And Tan -- you've mentioned that you use "eq wt / eq vol" more as a pedagogical tool...? Could you elaborate on that? I think I missed processing the few sentences you said about that.... I'm very interested in HOW eq wt / eq vol applies to thinking about and writing poetry in general.
5. STATIC vs. FORWARD MOVEMENT in a poem. When one is writing eq wt / eq vol poems, HOW is FORWARD MOVEMENT created? Where does it come from? When everything is so eq wt / eq vol, and so much more space is given to "meaning" -- then how does one create (in writing) or determine/feel (in reading) "forward movement"?
Is there SOME way we can critically evaluate "forward movement" in a poem? Something beyond just a nebulous "feeling"?
My sad story is: I've tried SO HARD making up all those eq wt / eq vol phrases for my first assignment. It was HARD. But still -- phrases bunched together don't make a forward-moving poem. What makes a poem move forward? How does one go about writing one? Feeling very lost about this. :(
6. PROCESS. I know Tan likes to avoid discussing process, to maintain focus on the poem itself. But I DO feel that PROCESS influences PRODUCT -- and A LOT.
Tan's own three books are SO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from each other -- it's like three different people wrote them. So Tan -- would you be willing to briefly chat about your writing process with us, in relation to your three books? Either in class, or if we all went out for drinks one day?
7. What is the relationship between NARRATIVE and PUNCTUATION??? Is there one? (Tan -- did you imply that there is a link? I've been wondering a lot about this.)
8. BOREDOM and BEAUTY (and LIES). Tan, to me, is the KING OF BOREDOM. In BLIPSOAK01, he writes, "Beauty is over-appreciated; boredom is not." In CONJUNCTIONS 35, he writes, "The best sentences should lose information at a relatively constant rate. There should be no ecstatic moments of recognition. The writing should take a long time to complete and induce a mode of slow (because repeated, hence nontemporal) transmission and (simultaneously) a high rate of error. It is no longer important to connect one thing to another with language or meaning but merely to create more errors so that in the transmission it is unclear if errors are controlling the speed or vice versa."
I'd say that MAYBE "he" was lying (because AMBIENT STYLISTICS is sort of all a lie?) -- but in Tan's interview with Charles Bernstein, he also surprises the interviewer with his stance on BOREDOM....
Which is why, I was SO SURPRISED when Tan used the word "beautiful" in our first class.
Tan, would you be willing to enlighten us a little more on the subjects of boredom, beauty, and lying? It was actually what I was expecting to learn more about when I signed up for the class -- you're THE revolutionary in this "field", after all!
I'd be SO happy if I could find SOME resolution to these VERY persistent questions of mine....
Jen, thanks for the post and the email. I'm intrigued to hear what you guys have to say. Don't worry I can take it.
loose leaf muck privately unnoticed cities are clovers embattled cheers to toes and margarine in the sand they yell chill narrows open windows limousine formica below hear silver round collection grays trembling and awed slide rhubarb sand in hand night sticks everywhere shoots of nails, keys, apples, cashmere, mascaras hurry through the mezzanine smelling it too much, palmy the mirror is it shampoo shining silver naked hear we wash the sand in from the grays of the sand, the blues, and the purple no, forget the car keys, door is more guttural telling coney island smells from these tall grays more than taste of vanilla yes, no, maybe stop to hear to listen to yell, argue, and curse the regulations idiomatic cinnamon razor, who said that sharp is not sharp cool is whip and cool and sharp is sharp that cotillion now that star not knowing ran up and down bringing in her sense closer rhubarb, peaches, tvs, blankets, and watermelons inside a tap slide a tap tear drops moose, geese, cheese, Doritos, why not punctuations and underwear lame varnish overwhelming themselves like sauna trolley down 7th avenue why not, why not right again, unlock the zodiac and waltz
Just wanted to say I'm very curious about all of the above, especially how to move something forward (by way of conventional or other means).
And since writers (for example Stein and Spahr) bring different formal preoccupations and or political projects to a poem, how to read with that in mind? Reading is complicated, isn't it!
In Sooyoung's poem I enjoyed the "palmy the mirror is it" and "these tall grays" lines. For me an interesting olfactory NYC element moves me through the poem.
PS the Way I ordered seems lost at sea but I found an mp3 or her reading online and a longish excerpt if it's the same for anyone else.
Wow. 5 weeks ago I HATED this poem. Now I think it's quite surprising and refreshing -- in wonderful ways. I think the class is re-programming the way I read a poem....
Thanks Sooyoung, for posting your poem. Sorry that I won't be able to launch the attacks I've prepared you for..... :)
6 comments:
Thanks, Tan, for starting a new thread. Several questions have been eating my brain since we've started the class -- and Tan suggested that we address it in the blog forum, so we can all take part in the discussion.
So here are my preliminary questions:
1. I'd hate to put Sooyoung on the spot, but I definitely have VERY strong reactions to Sooyoung's first two assignment poems. And my reactions are polar opposites to Tan's. We've discussed Sooyoung's shade/tag poem in class, but I can now see where Tan is coming from with his critique of it. However, with Sooyoung's first poem -- I feel that our discussion was incomplete. Tan had a VERY strong favorable reaction, but I still can't tap into it. I really want to know WHY and HOW it is a successful poem. Sooyoung -- would you be willing to post your poem here? And perhaps Tan could then expound upon its merits in more detail? I still have a lot to learn in terms of appreciating weird poetry, and feel that Sooyoung's first poem would be a perfect gateway in doing so....
2. ENJAMBMENT. I always feel a bit uncertain with enjambment. Sometimes I appreciate it on the "surprise", "breath of fresh air" level. But whenever I see it on a page, like in couplets or groups of four, I start to wonder: WHY use the couplet or quatrain structure when obviously the words do NOT want to be that way? Why such a rigid visual effect? Why not let the poem be FREE?
But LOTS of poems are like that. So I feel turned off, or just annoyed, like there's some secret rule going on in an elitist cult.
Where do line breaks occur? A wonderful poet/teacher, Lisa Jarnot, once made a list for us:
- Projectively (Olson, Howe, Weiner)
- Standard/Traditional (Shakespeare, etc.)
- Syllabically (Williams)
- Breath (Olson, Creeley, Duncan)
- Image (Schuyler)
Where does enjambment fit in? Any thoughts?
3. In my own playwriting classes, teachers often admonish us: AVOID ABSTRACT NOUNS -- THEY ARE WEAK! USE CONCRETE NOUNS WHENEVER POSSIBLE! USE ACTIVE VERBS! And: try to use words derived from ANGLO-SAXON roots -- they've got more character than LATIN-derived words.
I wonder if poets feel the same way. Or, whether poets relish the abstract nouns, Latin-family words more...? Is poetry more "heady"? Very interested in what people think.
4. Equal weight / equal volume. I'm interested in whether there is an example of a "perfectly eq. wt. / eq. vol. poem". Like, on the word-word level, as well as the line-line and more global levels.
Ilisa's poem last week, to me, seemed like the most PERFECT, most successful 100% "eq wt / eq vol" poem EVER. Are there more examples though? Very curious.
And Tan -- you've mentioned that you use "eq wt / eq vol" more as a pedagogical tool...? Could you elaborate on that? I think I missed processing the few sentences you said about that.... I'm very interested in HOW eq wt / eq vol applies to thinking about and writing poetry in general.
5. STATIC vs. FORWARD MOVEMENT in a poem. When one is writing eq wt / eq vol poems, HOW is FORWARD MOVEMENT created? Where does it come from? When everything is so eq wt / eq vol, and so much more space is given to "meaning" -- then how does one create (in writing) or determine/feel (in reading) "forward movement"?
Is there SOME way we can critically evaluate "forward movement" in a poem? Something beyond just a nebulous "feeling"?
My sad story is: I've tried SO HARD making up all those eq wt / eq vol phrases for my first assignment. It was HARD. But still -- phrases bunched together don't make a forward-moving poem. What makes a poem move forward? How does one go about writing one? Feeling very lost about this. :(
6. PROCESS. I know Tan likes to avoid discussing process, to maintain focus on the poem itself. But I DO feel that PROCESS influences PRODUCT -- and A LOT.
Tan's own three books are SO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from each other -- it's like three different people wrote them. So Tan -- would you be willing to briefly chat about your writing process with us, in relation to your three books? Either in class, or if we all went out for drinks one day?
7. What is the relationship between NARRATIVE and PUNCTUATION??? Is there one? (Tan -- did you imply that there is a link? I've been wondering a lot about this.)
8. BOREDOM and BEAUTY (and LIES). Tan, to me, is the KING OF BOREDOM. In BLIPSOAK01, he writes, "Beauty is over-appreciated; boredom is not." In CONJUNCTIONS 35, he writes, "The best sentences should lose information at a relatively constant rate. There should be no ecstatic moments of recognition. The writing should take a long time to complete and induce a mode of slow (because repeated, hence nontemporal) transmission and (simultaneously) a high rate of error. It is no longer important to connect one thing to another with language or meaning but merely to create more errors so that in the transmission it is unclear if errors are controlling the speed or vice versa."
I'd say that MAYBE "he" was lying (because AMBIENT STYLISTICS is sort of all a lie?) -- but in Tan's interview with Charles Bernstein, he also surprises the interviewer with his stance on BOREDOM....
Which is why, I was SO SURPRISED when Tan used the word "beautiful" in our first class.
Tan, would you be willing to enlighten us a little more on the subjects of boredom, beauty, and lying? It was actually what I was expecting to learn more about when I signed up for the class -- you're THE revolutionary in this "field", after all!
I'd be SO happy if I could find SOME resolution to these VERY persistent questions of mine....
Thank you all!
Sincerely,
Jen
Jen, thanks for the post and the email. I'm intrigued to hear what you guys have to say. Don't worry I can take it.
loose leaf muck privately unnoticed
cities are clovers embattled
cheers to toes and margarine in the sand they yell
chill narrows open windows limousine formica below
hear silver round collection grays trembling and awed
slide rhubarb sand in hand night sticks everywhere
shoots of nails, keys, apples, cashmere, mascaras hurry through the mezzanine
smelling it too much, palmy the mirror is it shampoo shining silver
naked hear we wash the sand in from the grays of the sand, the blues, and the purple
no, forget the car keys, door is more guttural telling
coney island smells from these tall grays more than taste of vanilla
yes, no, maybe stop to hear to listen to yell, argue, and curse the regulations
idiomatic cinnamon razor, who said that sharp is not sharp
cool is whip and cool and sharp is sharp that cotillion now that star
not knowing ran up and down bringing in her sense closer
rhubarb, peaches, tvs, blankets, and watermelons inside a tap slide a tap tear drops
moose, geese, cheese, Doritos, why not punctuations and underwear
lame varnish overwhelming themselves
like sauna trolley down 7th avenue
why not, why not right again, unlock the zodiac and waltz
Just wanted to say I'm very curious about all of the above, especially how to move something forward (by way of conventional or other means).
And since writers (for example Stein and Spahr) bring different formal preoccupations and or political projects to a poem, how to read with that in mind? Reading is complicated, isn't it!
In Sooyoung's poem I enjoyed the "palmy the mirror is it" and "these tall grays" lines. For me an interesting olfactory NYC element moves me through the poem.
PS the Way I ordered seems lost at sea but I found an mp3 or her reading online and a longish excerpt if it's the same for anyone else.
http://mediamogul.seas.upenn.edu/pennsound/authors/Scalapino/Scalapino-Leslie_Way.mp3
http://www.obooks.com/books/way.htm
Great questions, Jen. I'd like to post more when I have the chance (this month is crazy)...
Perhaps we could all post the poems we have workshopped on the blog? I'd really like to see them again.
Also, we could keep this blog up (or a similar thing) to continue discussions after the workshop ends.
Wow. 5 weeks ago I HATED this poem. Now I think it's quite surprising and refreshing -- in wonderful ways. I think the class is re-programming the way I read a poem....
Thanks Sooyoung, for posting your poem. Sorry that I won't be able to launch the attacks I've prepared you for..... :)
Jen
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